EPISODE 16
The Thread That Never Goes Away
A Lifetime with Bach's Music
with Ruben Valenzuela | director & founder, Bach Collegium San Diego
When we fall in love with something that matters to us, it’s natural to assume the connection will stay constant. That the object of our love will continue to make our hearts beat faster over the course of a lifetime. But anyone who’s lived with art or faith or a long-term relationship knows that’s not how it works. I often say that life is like a spiral. The thread of life is not a linear path, but rather a one that coils in on itself repeatedly, and each time we circle back to the same point on that spiral, we inevitably arrive at that same spot from a slightly different vantage point, with varying perspectives. As a result, while the thread persists, how we hold it and how it holds us is shifting constantly.
Ruben Valenzuela has been following the thread of Bach’s music since he was eight years old, when a piano teacher assigned him a piece by Bach to study. It led him from those childhood piano studies into a professional life as an organist and conductor. It drew him through a Seventh-day Adventist upbringing where church was in his DNA, to a Lutheran church job as a teenager, to founding Bach Collegium San Diego, where for over twenty years he’s been exploring the work of Johann Sebastian and his contemporaries. Over the course of that path, his relationship with Bach’s music has been through many stages, ranging from initial curiosity, to inspiration, to obsession at various points, and other moments when he felt he just had to walk away.
In this episode of BACH 52, as we chatted about Ruben’s journey with Bach, I was compelled by his willingness to sit with the discomfort that can arise around Bach’s music. He talked about how there are many texts he doesn’t agree with that perhaps are too theologically thorny. He was candid about his acute feeling that not all two hundred cantatas are masterpieces. He was incredibly open about how there are certain days when only the beautiful sounds can sustain him, because the words about a savior who fixes everything ring hollow against the reality of life.
Yet Bach persists anyway for Ruben. The rigor it demands. The way it defeats you, but you still keep coming back, only to discover again and again that the struggle, the discomfort is worth it.
This is a conversation about what it means to live with music for a lifetime—not as a monument to worship, but as a real, breathing presence that demands something from us. It’s art that is great not just because it was created by a master, but because it’s rooted in the daily practice of life, and somehow remains there around the corner no matter where you turn.
ARIAS
Sanfte soll mein Todeskummer from Easter Oratorio, BWV 249
PERFORMERS
Bach Collegium San Diego | Ruben Valenzuela, director
Violins: Elizabeth Blumenstock, Janet Strauss
Cello: Alex Greenbaum
Violone: Malachi Bandy
Therbo: Kevin Payne
Recorders: Kathryn Montoya, Stephen Bard
Bassoon: Anna Marsh
Organ: Ruben Valenzuela
SOUND (BWV 249 only): Daniel Rumley | VIDEO: Clubsoda Productions
This project is a fiscally sponsored project of FRACTURED ATLAS.
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TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] N PHAN: Do you think the music of Bach is for everyone?
[00:00:03] STUDENT 1: Absolutely.
[00:00:04] N PHAN: Can you say more about that?
[00:00:06] STUDENT 1: Um, I'll say, I mean, I think a lot of people say wi with this question that it's, you know, there's an amount of experience that needs to be, it's not entry level music, but in my own personal experience, it was some of the first classical music I listened to and what immediately struck my love for it.
[00:00:21] STUDENT 2: I think Bach has music for everyone. And it really depends on who you are, where you're coming from, and how much time you're willing to devote to his music.
[00:00:32] STUDENT 3: I'm not sure, I think the music is for everyone in that everyone can relate to the emotional context that Bach is, is working through.
[00:00:43] STUDENT 1: It's like the as the further you go along, the more questions you have. I think. Um, it's for anybody. Yeah, to appreciate, to play and then to keep going along and learning more and getting deeper and deeper into the music. I would say,
[00:00:55] STUDENT 3: I think Bach is for everyone in the sense that it's stunning and it's emotional and it's raw and it's so beautiful, but it's not for everyone in the sense that there is this barrier, you know, theologically for a lot of people,
[00:01:09] STUDENT 1: it's kind of interesting for me because I have a lot of religion in my family, but not necessarily in my direct upbringing.
[00:01:14] But I do feel. When playing, um, this music and other types of religious music that, I dunno, I'm connected with something, um, like with a group of people or with almost like a culture that I don't necessarily have, um, direct experience with. And I think it makes it more powerful in that sense.
[00:01:31] STUDENT 2: There's a lot of emotion and history and all sorts of other things shoved in there that makes Bach, you know, a man, not the guy with the wig.
[00:01:41] And that's something that a lot of people I think don't really understand. Or kind of overlook?
[00:01:47] STUDENT 1: I think it means connecting back, back to tradition, back to something. I mean, for me, you know, I'm not religious. I don't go to church every week for, um, that feeling of refuge. But with classical music, listening to old music, playing old music, I feel like it's something I can lean back on.
[00:02:03] That this is tried and true, you know, in a way that a lot of things aren't in this, in this time.
[00:02:14] N PHAN: Hi, I'm Nick Phan, and this is Bach 52.
[00:02:22] When we discover something that matters to us, we assume that our relationship with it will remain constant, that it will continue to move us in the same ways for 10, 20, 30 years to come. Anyone who knows art or faith or a long relationship knows it's not the way it works. The thread persists, but the way in which we hold it, the ways in which it holds us changes.
[00:02:52] Ruben Valenzuela has been holding the thread of Bach's music since he was eight years old, when a piano teacher gave him a piece by Bach to study. It drew him through an upbringing in a Seventh Day Adventist household where church was in his DNA to a Lutheran church job as a teenager, all the way to founding Bach Collegium San Diego, where he is exploring the music of Johann Sebastian Bach and his contemporaries today as artistic director and founder.
[00:03:21] Of this wonderful organization. I had the chance to collaborate with Ruben and Bach San Diego in October of 2024, and we performed concerts in San Diego and also sat down for this wonderful chat. I think one of the things that I found really compelling about this conversation with Ruben was his openness about his willingness to sit with discomfort.
[00:03:44] He doesn't always agree with the texts. He doesn't always agree with authority theology that Bach is contending with. There are some times when words about a savior that's gonna wipe away all of our discomfort and take care of all of our problems doesn't resonate for him with the realities of life today.
[00:04:01] But Bach still persists for Ruben, the rigor of it, the way his music can kind of leave you feeling defeated, and yet you come back to it and each time you come back to it, after those defeats you realize. It's worth it. This is a conversation about what it means to live with music for a lifetime. Not as an act of monumental worship, but as a presence that constantly is demanding something from you.
[00:04:28] It's art that is great, not because it's created by some great master, but because it's rooted in the daily practice of life and somehow it's always waiting for you around the corner no matter which way you turn. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Ruben, and please stick around for the aria at the end of this episode taken from Bach Easter Oratorio.
[00:04:51] We're here to talk about Bach, but we'll start off pretty simply. Just how did the music of Bach enter your life and how has it been a factor throughout your life?
[00:05:02] R VALENZUELA: Yeah, so growing up, as a lot of kids do with, Hey, we're gonna take piano lessons, piano lessons go, and then within, I don't know, probably a year or two.
[00:05:12] There was a piece by Bach that was assigned to me. I didn't know who Bach was. I just knew there was a new piece assigned to me. Um, and then I think I connected the dots a little later when I, I think I saw somewhere that he was like an important composer. Mm-hmm. So just the fact that I thought, oh, this is an important person.
[00:05:30] I, I should maybe play more of those pieces. And so I actually, I'm ashamed to say that I got to very, almost the end of high school. W with a lot of knowledge of the keyboard music, mainly the, the harpsichord music, uh, that I was doing on piano. But it was, it was actually about that point that I realized for the first time that this guy had written vocal music, if you can believe that.
[00:05:55] That had never been, I had never encountered it. I had never heard it. Um, so you can imagine when I did come across the Cantatas by accident, sort of, I was like, what? The motets, like, what is this music? This guy actually wrote vocal music. I had no idea. And looking back now, um, gosh, in some ways, you know, outside of my family, I think that's like the one thread that has been going on probably since I was eight to the present.
[00:06:23] Like, it just has never disappeared. It's just always around the corner in some way or another. Of course, moving to the organ, you can't, you know, you, you only get closer to. Right. Um, and then from there, of course, as I've mentioned, uh, getting to the vocal music and then suddenly you're like, I, I gotta know more about this, this music.
[00:06:42] N PHAN: What was it that brought the vocal music into your orbit?
[00:06:46] R VALENZUELA: College? The listening center. I think I was, it was spending some time down there, um, listening to music, you know, and, and, and at that moment I remember being particularly interested in music of Chopin. I was still playing a lot of piano. And so, and then I think.
[00:07:00] So "c"...I was in the vicinity and I saw like these brown, uh, things that said Bach them. I said, that's a lot of them. Why are they all the same? They look the same. So I pulled one out and it said cantata on it, and that didn't particularly look impressive, but I, I, I said, why there's so many of these? And what I was pulling out was that the college had the entire Nicholas Harnoncourt, uh, on vinyl.
[00:07:29] Mm-hmm. All of them. So I put one on and it was intriguing. I, I thought, this actually is kind of interesting. I don't know if I like it, frankly. I think the Chopin I was listening to, the Debussy just moments ago is, is actually more compelling to me. And this kind of felt like, oh, I think I'm gonna like, you know, eat some peas and eat my carrots and a little bit, you know?
[00:07:50] And, but, but I don't know, it just kept drawing me back. There was something about, I think for me it was the fact that it sounded to me it felt so different than the keyboard music. It felt so different from what I knew of Bach at that point. So I just kept going and it just eventually I think I figured out like, oh, there's a lot of these and maybe I should kind of figure out which of these is an important one.
[00:08:16] Like, and I think that probably led me to like say to, Christ Lag in Todesbanden. I think maybe I should listen to Ein Feste Burg or something. I think I know that hymn
[00:08:25] , right. That must be an important one. And so the thing that was like that, that made the ultimate like connection to me that said, this guy is incredible, is that I was already sort of in that cycle of church, right?
[00:08:37] You do church every weekend, you kick out and you have to have music for a week. Every week, somewhere or another Rain or Shine. You have to produce something. And then I read, I think somewhere in one of those har Harnoncoury things that these are the cantatas Bach, and he wrote one for every Sunday that was in, uh, response to the, the lectionary of.
[00:08:56] that day. And that was like very impressive to me. I was like, now this guy I can relate to, 'cause I'm certainly not composing anything, can't compose. But this guy not only is performing it, right, but he's writing it. And then I, I think, oh, there's three cycles of these and probably more that were lost.
[00:09:14] And then I think it was the work ethic that then drew me in. Funny enough, I said, this guy's like, kind of like he's in the, he's in the salt mine, right? I can relate to that. Somebody like, you know, I don't know, just a, like Beethoven I couldn't relate to, you know, he's, he's up there somewhere, you know. Um, but Bach to me is like, this guy's real, yeah.
[00:09:35] Like he, he, he's sort of doing the thing, you know? So I think that was the connection for me.
[00:09:39] N PHAN: Interesting.
[00:09:39] Yeah. There's like this kind of like tradesman aspect. Absolutely. Whereas Beethoven, you start to get into this sort of esoteric uhhuh art, highly composed kind of, you know, I think my next question for you is.
[00:09:52] You said you've had a church job since you were like a teenager. Teenager, yeah. I mean, so were you raised in a faith?
[00:09:58] R VALENZUELA: Yes, very much so. Um, seventh Adventist. Wow. And in a very strict Seventh Adventist environment. So we were in church every, not only every Saturday. Mm-hmm. Uh, Sabbath, but uh, there were always church services midweek.
[00:10:16] Wow. And the church community was an important thing of my childhood. We were always in church. I think because of that. The other music I was doing, like the, you know, again, Beethoven, Chopin, whatever, Debussy, that to me was this complete, separated venture. Mm-hmm. Than what I knew personally. Right. But then when I found out that this guy, like church life was like a piece of his, like DNA, I thought, oh my gosh, like this guy, I can, I can relate to that.
[00:10:48] And, and despite that, he's creating this amazing music in this environment. Somewhat. I don't want to, maybe chained is too powerful a word, but he certainly has the rigor of, of, of a church community and church life week in, week out. And yet with all those limitations, you could sense he's still creating this amazing music.
[00:11:10] Right? Yeah. And that was very compelling to me. Yeah.
[00:11:13] N PHAN: It's this kind of like uniting of your world. Right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Like there's the sort of art and fun, but then also Yeah. It's like rooted in church and work. Right. And bringing them together. That's, mm-hmm. So Seventh Day Adventist mm-hmm. Did that enable you to have church jobs and also do the church thing growing up?
[00:11:31] Because, you know, other churches are on Sundays,
[00:11:33] R VALENZUELA: right. So I went for, for a while there I was doing like two church jobs off and on here and there. So I would do, uh, the Sabbath and because of a lot of Saab Seventh Adventist churches. I have a, a sense that if you are given this talent gift, um, you give it back.
[00:11:52] Mm-hmm. And so I think some of my initial experiences were just that I was just volunteering my time and my parents were very proud of the fact that they had invested all this money into piano lessons and music lessons. And then in their eyes, this was the inevitable thing I was gonna give back to the church.
[00:12:09] But then eventually. Um, it freed me, you know, on Sunday I had nothing and a kind of a funny story, uh, teenage years. Um, I was, I used to mow lawns for money, right? But I, I've always had bad allergies. So, um, I would mow the lawns and, and then be in, in shambles for days because of all the, the, you know, the grass.
[00:12:30] And my mom saw on the paper said, Hey, there's a, there's a, they need a, a pianist at this little local Lutheran church. Would you be interested in trying it out? Like, I think they pay. And no problem there because it's not on Sabbath. So she took me, I was given the job, and that was my first non Adventist church shop, was at a Lutheran church.
[00:12:53] And that connects to all this because there was a book in their library. I have snooping around and I saw a book, uh, and I said, oh, Martin Luther, oh, oh, oh, okay. Martin Luther Lutheran. I get it. I mean, all these worlds are connecting. Right? And I pulled that book out and then there was a chapter. Where, you know, music as a gift of God ideas of music for Martin Luther.
[00:13:16] And in that was a mention of JS Bach. And I thought, what, like this guy is like connected to this Lutheran church like that I'm in right now, like I know far removed, but it's, there's a line, right? And then it just, all those little threads start to connect, right? And I sort of filed that away. And so when I encountered those tatas just a few years later in, in college.
[00:13:38] It all just sort of like the dots connected, like, oh, okay, I see. I see. Where he falls into this whole time and space sort of thing.
[00:13:48] N PHAN: And so what were you studying in college? Were you studying organ or were you studying?
[00:13:50] R VALENZUELA: I, I, I came in as a piano major, which is a crazy thing, but I only did that because I was afraid I wanted to do organ and I was already doing organ on my own, sort of, kind of figuring out on my own.
[00:14:02] Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause my piano teacher didn't want me to, you know, she had invested so much time in my piano. Playing technique and all that sort of thing. She's like, you know, if you wanna do organ, I'm okay with that, but why don't you wait till we're done with me when you go to college, do what you want. And so I was a little not courageous enough to just come in the door and say I'm a organ major, you know, not having really studied the organ formally.
[00:14:23] So I piano major, but after the first semester, that was the end of piano, and then I moved over to the organ. And that's, that's that. So there was always this like draw to the organ. Always. Always. Yeah. And, and again, I think it's just all the time I spend in church. Yeah. It's just like, you know, I, I can't, I'm not a preacher, I don't do this, that, or the other, but I, I can play some hymns and I can really make a contribution that way.
[00:14:51] And as a kid, you know, it makes you feel empowered. And that was for me. Yeah.
[00:14:55] N PHAN: That's amazing. So do you still practice. As a sympathy Adventist or No, you just, you just,
[00:15:00] R VALENZUELA: no, my parents are still very, very much, they practice that faith, but I do not. But of course, you know, looking back, for me, I mean, as a kid I didn't particularly always like it because I was, you know, I went to public school my whole childhood, right.
[00:15:13] There was nobody else like me. Hmm. So when the kids would show up on Monday and talk about their, oh yeah. Did you see Dukes of Hazard on Friday night? Well, I didn't because it was sundown. Friday night was the Sabbath. Right. And so there was no watching of tv. And so I, I got to turn it back on on Saturday night, just probably somewhere in the middle of, um, the love boat or fantasy island is when it kind of came back on, right?
[00:15:35] So I knew those episodes, but never Dukes of Hazard. I just missed that entirely. That is true. Night writer missed that entirely. Um, but no, I'm not practicing.
[00:15:44] N PHAN: So let's just jump to the question that's the center of this. I mean, you've had a very specific experience, both religiously and also musically.
[00:15:53] There's clearly a draw. for you. Mm-hmm. It sounds like, because, you know, faith has always been a part of your life mm-hmm. In some, either professionally or, you know, and, and the way you were raised. Mm-hmm. There's a way in for you, but do you, do you feel like this music is for everyone?
[00:16:12] R VALENZUELA: It depends on when you ask me that question.
[00:16:14] I think nowadays I, I, I question because if we're talking about just, let's just say the Cantatas, right? Right. And you have to confront the tech. Yes. And a lot of the times the text for me, I think, my gosh, like I, I don't even know that I agree with this. Like, this is like, does not resonate with me. And I try to sort of like, I, I certainly can't even digest it through the lens of an 18th century Lutheran.
[00:16:42] We just can't, 'cause we're, we we're not those people we're not those people. Yeah. And, and so I, I, yeah sometimes reconciling some of those quite vicious, sometimes attacks, um. Uh, you know, I, I will, okay, let's, let's kind of gloss over that one, or, but if you, if you were to force me to like, okay, let's really unpack this.
[00:17:00] I might most likely have some problems with some of these things, you know, and, and I won't even get into like the, all of the, all of the, uh, you know, like the passions and those, those issues, which is a whole other,
[00:17:12] N PHAN: oh no, let's go there.
[00:17:15] R VALENZUELA: I mean, you know, the piece that probably the first major work of Bach that I obsessed with was the st. John Passion. Okay. And, you know, somewhat naive, just jump right into it, but I I it's just laden with so many issues and, you know, the Gospel of John just in and itself is, is raises so many questions as to who are we looking at?
[00:17:40] N PHAN: Well, right. There's a very much an us there. The part of the point of the gospel of John is to create a them, right?
[00:17:47] Yes. And us and them. Us and them, and create a delineation and point the thing. Somebody,
[00:17:50] R VALENZUELA: right? And, and, and, and, and I think for a long time I'd be like, okay, at least I recognize the problems. And so I'm not naive about the problems. So therefore now I can proceed, sort of, I know what the problems are and everybody's okay.
[00:18:04] Everybody's okay. Okay, let's do it. But I've come across dear, dear, dear friends and dear, dear colleagues, who will tell me, you know, I absolutely like my livelihood is boxing me. But my wife cannot, she will not come to a performance of any performance of the, of the John passion. And, and it's striking to hear that because there's just so many lenses that you can see this music through and, uh, you know, getting up on that balcony and looking down, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a hornet's nest.
[00:18:35] And you try to reconcile some of these things with, well, let's see. This is. This is how we think Bach really felt about this. You know, this is, this is what he had in his library, so therefore I don't think he was carrying the same sort of animosity, uh, say towards the Jews that say, maybe we think Luther had generation before, two generations before.
[00:18:53] So, okay, let's proceed then. This is just a lot of trepidation there these days. I haven't done it in a while, the John passion, but I think the next time I do it, I think there's a great opportunity to really unpack the thing as much as possible, just even if it goes to some really difficult place. And I think, I think part of that has to do with age too.
[00:19:11] You know, like contemporary society. Some of the things that I don't resonate with, perhaps politically and otherwise are in some of these things and you're like, oh, okay. It's, it's not, I shouldn't just treat this all as like a little buffet. I, I, I like this one over here because it's Bach and I can do it, but over there, no, this is like clearly.
[00:19:37] Everybody hates that or recognizes the evil in that. You know what I mean? So, yeah. So the passion's tricky stuff and, and you find vestiges of that, I think. In the Cantatas. Oh, the Cantatas everywhere. Yeah. In fact, everywhere I would say, I would say that in the Cantatas, you see it more in that. To me, the cantatas are sort of boxed it sometimes it feels like it's his laboratory and, and let's be honest, I mean there's 200 church cantatas and they're not all of the same level.
[00:20:04] Like I I I think there used to be a time when I'd be like, it's Bach. It must be good. It's Bach done. Right. It's, it's a masterpiece. They're not all masterpieces. And that's when it gets really complicated for me because when the music's not particularly. Up to the standard of say, 'cause his standard is quite high.
[00:20:20] Think of, it'll be, think that if it doesn't quite reach that mark and the text is sort of thorny, then I'm like, eh. Like this is, even the beautiful sounds aren't doing it for me now at this point. So there, there's that element too for me. 'cause you know, I've done enough of that. Like a fourth of of a cantana might be really good.
[00:20:40] Mm-hmm. And then there's like this little hole. You know, it's like, eh, okay, then it comes back, eh, next. So there's also that,
[00:20:48] N PHAN: it's interesting, there are so many people who think he did not really believe and feel, and people who know all the notes, right. Yeah. That we know of. Yeah. Who feel that he did not write a bad note.
[00:20:56] Oh gosh. And it's interesting to hear a perspective that is not an agreement with that.
[00:21:01] R VALENZUELA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, absolutely. The worship of Bach, there's a lot of that. Mm-hmm. Makes me uncomfortable. And I think that's obviously, you know. It's kind of a 19th century ideal that was prevalent of worshiping.
[00:21:16] I mean, actually we were talking about Beethoven. It kind of goes to this point where Beethoven suddenly, it, it, it creates this, um, idea of like hero idolization worship and, and composers take on this echelon of, of. Superheroes of sorts. Right. And they are put into the cannon. And they put into the cannon.
[00:21:36] And by the time of course, that Bach comes around again, and as his. Work start to sort of be published in, in mass and suddenly, um, yeah, he's part, he's definitely part of the canon. 'cause he begat these other ones that have already been in the canon. Then, you know, you've got like Albert Schweitzer proclaiming him as the fifth evangelist and all this sort of thing.
[00:21:56] Like this guy was like, you know, just this. Holier than thou devout Lutheran, um, theologian without a flaw. And there are people who really buy into that concept of this guy. He could do no wrong.
[00:22:12] N PHAN: Right. Yeah, I don't, I That's so interesting. 'cause I mean, I feel like my impression is that I'm sure he was aware that he could do a lot of wrong things, and I'm not, I mean, I don't know.
[00:22:22] Again, it gets back to this sort of trades person. Versus like artiste. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like he's someone who was practicing a craft and you know, like you say, the tatas are kind of a laboratory. Mm-hmm. He's clearly like experimenting with things and trying to master certain concepts. Mm-hmm. It's interesting for me, I have to say though, I do think that, I don't know that he didn't write a bad note.
[00:22:45] I I in a way that, in that way lies madness. Right? Yeah. But something that I do appreciate about him is that whatever he's done, even if you don't necessarily like it. It's compelling enough to force you to sit with it, and I feel like a little bit, that's part of the point of what he's always doing.
[00:23:02] Mm-hmm. Right? He's kind of asking you to sit with difficult concepts that absolutely maybe don't, they don't make sense, or they're confusing or they're uncomfortable. That like we have to sort of sit with that discomfort, that confusion, and somehow try and make some sort of sense out of it, which I don't know, in this day and age, I find a lot of value in that because.
[00:23:24] Like you're talking about contemporary times too, right? Yeah. Like St. John Passion. It's so easy to just write it off as one thing, but it's not just one thing. Mm-hmm. It's so many different things and, you know, we can speculate about what he thought about Jews, but the point is he really took a lot of time to futz with that mm-hmm.
[00:23:42] Source material. Mm-hmm. In order to craft a different narrative.
[00:23:45] R VALENZUELA: Yeah. Yeah. Sit with discomfort. Yeah. I, I, there, there, there's a certain attraction to that. I, I gotta, I think my temperament is. Like the rigor in his music. And even if you don't like the music, as you said, every note I think has intention.
[00:24:00] Whether it ended up being compelling or not in Bach's music, I always feel like, like this is very intentional. Like for me, I think the rigor of the music is attractive. 'cause I can't think of another composer that is so demanding of the interpreter. You know, the, the virtuosity that you need, the, the, the mental capacity to think on a vertical and horizontal plane.
[00:24:25] His music is so strong in those two areas, it's dense. And I think that attracts me, knowing that I'm gonna get, I, I, I'm gonna get, you know, my, you know what, why, um, and, and I, but I come back for more. Right. No, and I, I can think of specific. Organ pieces, like really well known organ pieces of Bach that I have played many, many times and they just never get comfortable.
[00:24:52] And because it's, there's some awkward turn or something, but the fact that it's that way and there's this discomfort mm-hmm. Like makes me like, okay, let me try it another one. Maybe I can figure this out and finally be comfortable after years of playing this and maybe, maybe this is the time. And then other things, it's like another leak sprout.
[00:25:13] And, and there's something about the rigor of that, that I find compelling and attractive and at the same time exhausting. Yes. And disappointing.
[00:25:22] N PHAN: But I mean, I think this is, again, when you get to this thing about like trades person and artiste, like there is a trap in this sort of romantic artist trope that we've developed around people like Beethoven or that he developed around himself.
[00:25:33] Yeah. Which is, you know. Something is supposed to come to us. An inspiration and genius just pours forth naturally when actually that's not the reality of being an artist. Being an artist is about daily practice and like being willing to like work out whatever uncomfortable corner is in anything and knowing that that's the thing that makes our craft better and allows us more freedom at the end of the day artistically.
[00:25:54] Right. Especially as performers. I understand the attraction,
[00:25:58] R VALENZUELA: the rigor is so intense. Yeah. That you want to have a go. Let's do this. Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me work on this and see if I can actually get into this. And Yeah. Like I said, sometimes I just get like, yeah, you get beat up. You, you kind of walk away feeling completely like disappointed and defeated.
[00:26:18] Like, I can't even tell you how many times I've walked away from his music, feeling absolutely defeated. Right. But then you come back. You're like, this is worth it. This is worth it.
[00:26:28] N PHAN: It's, it's, and he, he gives you like a hint of that, that it's possible too, right? Mm-hmm. Like somewhere inside there, you know, that it's, it's possible.
[00:26:36] Yeah. I mean, even in this context of this project with like trying to climb this mountain of filming 52, there have been a couple arias where like, we start in session and I'm like, am I gonna be able to do this? You know? You know, of course like there are takes where you're like, wow, that was a complete and utter catastrophe.
[00:26:54] And then, you know, but somehow you have like, you want to try and climb the mountain and you do it, and then there's this reward at the end of the that.
[00:27:01] Yeah. But this is
[00:27:03] R VALENZUELA: a whole other maybe topic, but what is his expectation? Like if you were to come back to life, what would be his expectation of level achieved?
[00:27:13] Like you don't know, like Right. We don't know, like. We we're string players, like, just completely like, this is absolute nuts. We can't sustain this. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, or singers like, you gotta be this ridiculous. Like, I cannot sustain this. Like, it's one thing to do one work on it for a while, but, but, but they're, they're coming know, I mean, so I don't know.
[00:27:34] Like, there's probably also an aspect of our modern day through recordings that we hear manufactured, uh, perfected examples of some of these really difficult things. Right. And so that may not be like real, well, it isn't realistic.
[00:27:51] N PHAN: Yeah. Maybe we're holding ourselves to an unfair standard.
[00:27:53] R VALENZUELA: Maybe. Maybe Like, can you imagine going back?
[00:27:56] I mean like if I had a time travel thing, uh, one of my things without question, like, take me back to Leipzig on a good Friday. I want to hear what the evangelist sounded like. The guy who Right. Did that the first time. I want to hear what that sounded like.
[00:28:10] N PHAN: I'm even more curious to hear what the guy sounded like doing some of these cantatas at. 8:30 AM on a Sunday.
[00:28:16] R VALENZUELA: Exactly. Like with the church is like Bridget. Yeah. Cold. You know what I mean? Like everything's outta tune probably. It's, that would be astonishing.
[00:28:27] N PHAN: It would've either been really great. Yeah. Which is shocking, but also kind of not, 'cause he wrote the music obviously for a reason. Yeah.
[00:28:33] Thinking it was possible or it was a complete utter, you know, tornado of a. Catastrophe.
[00:28:41] R VALENZUELA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and probably again, like everything goes, because as we know, church hasn't changed in this regard, is that you have some good days and you have some bad days. And probably my guess is with something like the big days, like the passion, good Friday, it, I'm guessing that maybe they, they put a little, it was a little bit more leeway.
[00:29:00] Right. And, and preparation time for those, but those other cantatas that are just coming, yeah. Fresh off the press kind of things, I probably, yeah, like July 10th. Here, here, here, here. Like ink's drying, and you're just like, trying to make sense of this. Right. You know, it's like, I, I can't imagine that those were sustainable at a high level.
[00:29:16] I, I, I just can't.
[00:29:18] N PHAN: I can't either, but maybe they were, maybe they're just all geniuses and they all sounded like Grammy nominated recordings at all times.
[00:29:26] R VALENZUELA: I hope not.
[00:29:27] N PHAN: Oh, I hope not too. Yeah. That'd be really humbling. Yeah. So you've founded Bach Collegium San Diego? Mm-hmm. We're in a. We're really far from Leipzig.
[00:29:38] R VALENZUELA: We are.
[00:29:39] N PHAN: What was the inspiration in, in starting this organization that, you know, it's got Bach in the name, right?
[00:29:46] R VALENZUELA: Yeah, yeah. It's completely centered around his music. Let's go back to 2003 in the lead up to that again, and I mean, obsessed with the cantatas. I wanted to really unpack every one of them and listen to them and understand them at that point.
[00:30:00] The, uh, the ensemble that I was listening to a lot was Bach Collegium Japan. Hmm. I really had an admiration for Suzuki's work. I, I heard him twice in person and that just sort of like amplified. I just really loved what they were doing with their, I was buying all those CDs and, and so I, I thought I, I, I want to do this.
[00:30:23] And as I said already, I was like, I'm obsessed with the St. John Passion. The first thing we ever did formally was the St. John Passion. No Tatas. No, nothing. There was no dabbling with a cont, a bigger cantata or Right. Just, we're gonna go, we're going to you just over right in. We're gonna go right in. And I, I think I lived with that piece for a good solid year before we did it.
[00:30:43] And it was Musica, Angelica was the orchestra that came down and I put together a choir, friends to do it. And as the weekend approached and we needed it, we had no name. It was just Musica, Angelica and whatever. I said, well, tell you what, why don't we just sort of name it Bach Collegium San Diego. I like Bach. Collegium, Japan. That seems fitting and it's just for the weekend. And then we'll get on with our life and if people have a good time, maybe we can do some other concert and we'll find a name. So we did the St. John Passion and uh, pretty much blew up the bank doing that. And I said, well, what do we do now? And I looked, started looking at this skin test like, man, those are hard, like in some ways they're harder than the John Passion.
[00:31:26] Yes. And certainly they're not practical in that it calls for some really. Really specialized instrumentation sometimes. So we said, oh, I know what we'll do. We're gonna do the motets. And so we, we lived on, we feasted on the ts for a good solid year off and on of learning all those. 'cause all we needed to was just a c continuo.
[00:31:43] Right? And then it just sort of like, okay, maybe we can add, uh, maybe one of those like early cantatas that it's just like strings or something, and that that was it. But again, I was obsessed with Bach. I wanted to actually get into the dirt of it all. And, and seeing what the, and, and, and here's Mr. Naive me is that we, um, early on we established this series called, we Still Have It Today, Bach at Noon.
[00:32:05] And the purpose of that was I just wanted another platform to do Bach Cantatas. And I said, okay, so what we'll do, we will meet in the day before and put a Tata maybe two together and perform it the next day. And I, you know, I quickly found out this is not. Possible. Like, I mean, if, if people come knowing one that they've done before, maybe, but, you know, at this point it was mostly some, you know, volunteer situation and no, there was no way.
[00:32:30] Wow. And this was hard lift. So we abandoned that and the series to the, to the president's become just a, a series where we feature all com, you know, just some number of different com diverse composers, and occasionally a bot something or other pops in. But that, that's how obsessed I was with it. Wow. I, I just wanted, and then, so I was by Suzuki, I, I think I bought the Koopman.
[00:32:50] I was just eating that up. Um, of course I probably bought the Kuykens wherever I can get my hands on there. And I was just listening to every possible recording I could get my hands on. And what, why do they do that same piece, but that sounds so different. What's going on here? Sort that. Yeah. So it was just like curiosity, really.
[00:33:07] Super curiosity.
[00:33:08] N PHAN: Interesting. About the cantatas. About the cantatas, the things that you thought were maybe not for you at the first Listen.
[00:33:13] R VALENZUELA: Exactly, exactly. But then in a funny sort of way, uh, going back to the Adventist thing, when I had sort of like, eh, church, the other thing that was like, okay, this is like church, but I like it initially because I can relate to this church because the sounds that come with this church are very beautiful.
[00:33:31] And I like Bach, and so I can, I can, I can sink my teeth into this theology stuff, even if maybe I don't necessarily agree with it. I, I'm willing to this, this, this might be my only portal to that. 'cause certainly what I had been living before as a kid was like, didn't speak to me at all. It was just very, I, you know, it was just con confining.
[00:33:53] Yeah. You know, it's,
[00:33:55] N PHAN: I. So last night we performed in a Greek Orthodox church. Yeah. I was raised Greek Orthodox. And it's very interesting how, I mean, you know, anything with the word orthodox in it is not for everyone. Right, right. And it just prides itself on being like the or. Mm-hmm. Or the original whatever.
[00:34:12] Mm-hmm It is. And you know, being in that space. You know, technically in an orthodox church, like the space in which we performed is not for everyone. Mm-hmm. You have to be baptized to enter it. Mm-hmm. Like the space that's for everyone is outside. Mm-hmm. You know, like in the sort of entryway of the church.
[00:34:28] Mm-hmm. And you know, here we were doing this thing and it just reminded me of this thing about reli of Christianity in particular that really I find fascinating. Which is that it is supposed to be an evangelical religion. Right? Right. It's supposed to be evangelizing and like it to be for everyone.
[00:34:42] Mm-hmm. And to be converting the masses and yet. So much of it really is about creating us versus them. Mm-hmm. Who's in the club. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting listening to you talk about the cantatas, like even though it's theology you're not sure you can necessarily agree with, but like, it does get to the evangelical aspect of, these are sounds that I like.
[00:35:02] Mm-hmm. There's something that sort of like musical propaganda about it, which
[00:35:06] R VALENZUELA: Oh, oh totally. I, I think, I don't know, I could completely be making this up, but somewhere. I think Martin Luther made some comment and paraphrased as like, why should the devil have all the good tunes? Right. You know what I mean?
[00:35:18] And so music is just such a powerful tool to sort of like, you know, draw, we're all drawn by different things, and certainly I'm drawn by beautiful sounds clearly right. And that's the thing that I gets my attention. And so like, when it's sort of like, you know, the, the smoke incense is doing this. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll go.
[00:35:38] Let's, let's go. You know what I mean? Let's, let's, let's, let's see what's in there and I'll, I'll follow. Has there been value for that? I mean, in your life with that in terms of like, you know, being seduced into a place where like you were initially resistant to, I mean, my faith is like a, it's like a roller coaster.
[00:35:55] N PHAN: I think that's the nature of being human.
[00:35:57] R VALENZUELA: You know what I'm saying? Yes. And, and, and like right at this very literally, very moment, I find myself at, at a low dip. Where I'm pretty feel rather immune to it all. Mm. But, but there has been a time when, again, like I'm listening to, let me think about, oh, respond.
[00:36:16] It's like, oh my gosh. Could there be like an a more euphoric mm-hmm. Expression of, you know, the end of that first movement with all those hallelujahs going, that is like euphoric expression of resurrection, rebirth. Like, sign me up. Right. Let's go. You know what I mean? But. If I were like this very moment, I'd be like, eh, okay.
[00:36:36] I mean, amazing music and I will do what needs to be done. That it, it's euphoric. But as far as like, personally what it means for me, I'm probably like immune to it at this very moment. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And like yesterday, I think you were talking about, you know, the, the, uh, the aria from 2 49 Easter Oratorio.
[00:36:54] Mm-hmm. And you, and it's just like, yeah, it's powerful, powerful stuff there and how the music is reflective of that. And you sort of got my attention. I'm like, huh, I should maybe. Go like, you know, I'm in a pool, I should kind of go under a little bit and see if I can kind of get into this. And it's again, I think at this very moment, it's just the beautiful sounds that are feeding me.
[00:37:14] And the text is at this moment, not really resonating with me at all. Right. To be perfectly honest.
[00:37:20] N PHAN: Yeah. That one thing from the Easter Oratorio where he's talking about, you know, the text is very much about the, we have a savior and the savior is taking care of all of our problems ultimately.
[00:37:30] R VALENZUELA: Yeah.
[00:37:31] That's exactly it. And I, and I'm thinking, oh, that's all fine and great and all, but the truth is that's certainly not always my reality. Mm-hmm. You know, like I, you know, I, whether it's like a dear friend who, who who was sick, um, passes away or like, this is bs. You know, it's like, and you know, these attacks emanate really from this sort of layover of this medieval world of just take it face value and don't question faith.
[00:37:59] Done out. Right. And, and so at this, at this particular moment, um, you know, and I, I could very well feel different in five years. I don't, I don't know. It's just, it's literally incredible music. The construction of it is so amazing.
[00:38:15] N PHAN: I, I do think that that's part of the genius of it is that even though you're not in, like, one cannot be in a place where you can relate to the text.
[00:38:22] Yeah. There's, there is a way in through the notes that are on the page and I, I, I wonder if some of that is also like. Yeah, it's this holdover from this medieval sort of thinking, but also that was his reality. Mm-hmm. And so that's what he's expressing. Right. And there is something still very real about those aspects of human, human life and existence.
[00:38:39] Now,
[00:38:41] R VALENZUELA: Cantata 21, the, uh, is it the Veil of Tears? Mm-hmm. Yada, it's like just the shapes and the gestures of the writing in that, that, you know. It couldn't be descriptive of anything else. It's just so strong in its depiction of a particular affect. Yeah. And yes, I under, you know, other composers that we're not, who, who, who we're not even talking about like, have these moments as well, but I, I don't know.
[00:39:07] I, I feel like goes back to the fact that Bach is doing all of this incredible stuff most of the time. I'm not gonna say all the time, but most of the time working in this. In this constraint of, these are the lectionary readings, this is for Sunday. Mm-hmm. Unlike say, you know, our dear friend Handel, who is the other big name of the 18th century, who is sort of operating on more or less his own terms, certainly, you know, in the oratorio and opera world, whereas Bach is like, like Right.
[00:39:38] Lutheran into the core to the end. Let's go. Yeah.
[00:39:42] N PHAN: It is much more prescriptive. I mean, Handel's limitations, and constraints are much more. Commercial. Yeah. Than they are exactly like kind of exactly philosophical, religious.
[00:39:50] R VALENZUELA: But I will say I've always been fascinated by the fact that the latter part of Bach's life, the two you could say the twilight is, I know 60 something I forget, is that you can sense that he turns his attention to.
[00:40:03] These legacy ideas of like, you know, like, okay, I think I'm pretty good. My, my craftsmanship at these things I do every Sunday that I've been doing. Right. I think I'm pretty good at that and I think I'm gonna try to bring all these ideas into these pieces that are somewhat theoretical, uh, not necessarily practical things, but really for me.
[00:40:23] Mm-hmm. And that's where I think it's interesting that he kind of turns inward a bit and he starts like, I've done all that stuff. Yeah. At church you're gonna be okay. And now I'm going to work my ideas out for me. Right. For the long haul. Like I find that very interesting that it's like a retirement mentality, right?
[00:40:41] Oh, absolutely. Like this is for me now, this is for me now. And I can sort of picture him, you know, going into the garage of sorts, you know? Yeah. Metaphorical garage and he's, you know, under the hood and, and he's like, yeah, that thing I did back in that cantata all those years ago. I think there's a place for this in this B minor mass thing that I idea that I'm trying to put together.
[00:40:59] These like. The, the best of my ideas, I'm gonna just sort of like put 'em all here and if anybody ever performs it, that's neither here nor there. It's just the idea of it. And, and so it's interesting how, um, even Bach who maybe was like serving mm-hmm. Really looks inward, I think, towards the end. Um, and, and just, and those, I think those, I, without question, I will say those, those are, you know, I don't know if I like the piece masterpiece that's kind of, I know sometimes weird word, but just like.
[00:41:31] Top. Top shelf. Yeah. Yeah. Like it. It's up on that high shelf of that gin is way up there. Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:41:39] N PHAN: So you're what, 22 years in with? Yeah. Bach Collegium San Diego. Mm-hmm. Why do you think it's important to keep bringing his music into this community?
[00:41:48] That's a tough question.
[00:41:49] R VALENZUELA: Why? Because I'll tell you why. Average person, I love classical music.
[00:41:53] Who are your favorite composers? Almost guaranteed. Somewhere in there. Bach is gonna turn up. Bach, Beethoven, proms and blah blah. And they're like, okay. So you're like Bach. Alright, so do you know the Tatas? Mm. How many of those do you know? Five mm four. You know, some big Bach nerd might know 20. Right, right.
[00:42:15] 20, maybe somebody a little bit more than that. And when you stop and think about it, there's 200 of 'em. Unless you really have taken a dive into like all of those, there's a. A whole half of this composer that you really don't know. Right. It's not the B minor mass. It's not the, you know, well tempered vere.
[00:42:34] It's not the brander concertos, it's these cantatas that are such a major part of the entire opus. Mm-hmm. The entire corpus that is Bach. That, that you, you know what you richly don't know Bach. You know what I mean? So, so I find that fascinating and I think because of that, I think it's important. To go outside the cannon of the Cantatas mm-hmm.
[00:42:54] And not do the Christ lag's. And not do the, the one oh sixes Gottes Zeit and all, and, and drop in these other ones that aren't as well known. So that some of these idea, hopefully these threads will come through and it's like, oh yeah. Whoa. That's pretty cool. I never would've been kind like, yeah, nobody performs back around here.
[00:43:10] Nobody. It's like cantatas, nobody. And certainly Lutherans don't, at least not here, don't do them on a regular basis. So where else are you gonna hear it? Right? Yeah. It falls on this ensemble to. Try to program those here and there. Not a, not a big heavy dose of it, but it's, it's like you said, it's not always so, uh, user friendly.
[00:43:29] Yeah. Well, it's challenging, that's for sure. It's very challenging. It, it really assumes a lot about the listener that, that you've got the 18th century concept of that sociology. Mm-hmm. And then everything that comes with the music on top of it, um, that's a, that's a big thing to, uh, throw out there.
[00:43:50] Amazing. Yeah. It's funny how you'll go through your life and then realize that there's this thing that just never goes away. Mm-hmm. You know, again, outside of family, like, you know, a sibling or whatever, like, there's this thing that sort of landed in my lap at one point and it's never gone away, and it probably won't ever go away.
[00:44:08] I mean, for heaven's sakes, I have in my bedroom because I do, in my bedroom, I have, uh, a picture of the, the St. Thomas mm-hmm. Is right there. And I'm thinking that's pretty nerd. Like to wake up every day and to see like an etching of St. Thomas there, you know, in bedroom for heaven sake. Yeah. Right. And, and as you know, Brahms had a, the portrait, the copy of the, the Hausman portrait in over his single bed.
[00:44:29] Oh Lord. So imagine, imagine that
[00:44:33] N PHAN: waking up to J S's face every day. Uhhuh. Wow. Actually right now in my bedroom, I have an action figure with him. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, but yeah, I can relate to that. Yep. Thank you very much for
[00:44:47] R VALENZUELA: My pleasure.
[00:44:48] N PHAN: Taking some time on this very busy weekend to have a chat.
[00:44:50] R VALENZUELA: I enjoyed that very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And thanks very much for doing Absolutely. Thanks. This to you. I've enjoyed every minute of it. Same. I started the week off a little tired because I told you my little guy's not sleeping well. So, but then as it got going I thought, oh, this is like God amazing music.
[00:45:04] N PHAN: See, it's like, you see what I'm saying? It refreshes you in weird. Yeah. In a weird way, the rigor. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:21] The aria for this episode is taken from Box Easter Oratorio, and it's about how the sting of death is not something to fear anymore. The sting has been softened because death will be like a slumber and. Jesus, our Savior will wipe away all of our sorrows, all of our tears of pain. In our interview, Ruben mentioned working on this aria together, and he mentioned that he wasn't necessarily feeling the texts at this very moment in his life, and I think that that's something we can all relate to.
[00:45:55] We all have moments when our feelings change about things or our faith dips, or we experience doubt and. The promise of an angel on high coming to take away all of our problems seems like eviction, and yet as this piece demonstrates the music, it remains. I wonder if that's maybe part of the point, not that we always have to believe the same thing and in the same way, but that the music is always there doing its work, even when we're not close to it, maybe, especially when we're not close to it.
[00:46:35] Sanfte soll mein Todeskummer from BWV 249